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i don't think this fiscal cliff talks will resolve anything. nothing. charles: the whole thing, though, a lot of conservatives are saying boehner may not be that far away from obama in ideology. in other words, he's purged the tea party within the ranks of the leadership within the g.o.p. and seems to be willing to go down the same path as the president. >> i'm not sure i believe that. i think boehner's heart is in the right place, but he's caught up. it's his role to sort of grind out a deal with the president, rather than speak for the party. noww you know, stuart, in the british system, someone will stand on the floor of the house of commons in the opposition and give a major statement of the party's position in any given fight. i don't see why it should not be possible to designate somebody like paul ryan or eric cantor or even marco rubio to stand down in washington and give a major presentation. charles: if they give the presentation and the lead ser doing something different -- and the leader is doing something different, isn't that a mixed messa
i don't think this fiscal cliff talks will resolve anything. nothing. charles: the whole thing, though, a lot of conservatives are saying boehner may not be that far away from obama in ideology. in other words, he's purged the tea party within the ranks of the leadership within the g.o.p. and seems to be willing to go down the same path as the president. >> i'm not sure i believe that. i think boehner's heart is in the right place, but he's caught up. it's his role to sort of grind out a...
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that any deal to avert the fiscal cliff must address serious entitlement reform. we should not let the discussion around taxes, which is sort of dominating the airwaves here in washington, distract us from the fact that washington has a spending problem, not a revenue problem. every independent expert who examined america's long-term structural fiscal dilemma comes to the same conclusion. entitlement programs are the drivers of our national debt over the long term. those who argue that we can dig our way out of a $16 trillion debt -- and counting, by the way -- by raising taxes are ignoring reality. according to the congressional budget office's most recent forecast, under the current tax rates, revenues over the next ten years will average roughly 18% of g.d.p. in other words, federal revenues will return to their historical average without raising taxes on anyone. i will repeat that, mr. president, because i think it's an important point. our tax revenues will go back up to average 18% over the next decade, which is the historical average. that happens with exis
that any deal to avert the fiscal cliff must address serious entitlement reform. we should not let the discussion around taxes, which is sort of dominating the airwaves here in washington, distract us from the fact that washington has a spending problem, not a revenue problem. every independent expert who examined america's long-term structural fiscal dilemma comes to the same conclusion. entitlement programs are the drivers of our national debt over the long term. those who argue that we can...
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>> here's the deal, first of all for the audience, we talk about the fiscal cliff, it involves three things. first of all it deals with the bush tax cuts set to expire in december. it also deals with the debt ceiling, sequestration, there's three parts to it. the president is consistently saying i talked to people in his administration, saying look we want to deal first just with the tax cuts. republicans want to add the other pieces to it because they know it's hard to defend fighting for the tax cuts for the top 2%. they need to be able to tell their supporters we got something out of this. the president is saying separate them. that's part of the reason why you have this battle. >> dig deeper into what you're saying, roland, 70% for democrats, 70% seem to suggest they are willing to see cuts in entitlements, house speaker john boehner says taxes remain a sticking points but there are reports that bainer is open to more revenues. is it time for democrats to give more on social security, medicare and medicaid? >> the president did so last year. if you ask republican leadership they
>> here's the deal, first of all for the audience, we talk about the fiscal cliff, it involves three things. first of all it deals with the bush tax cuts set to expire in december. it also deals with the debt ceiling, sequestration, there's three parts to it. the president is consistently saying i talked to people in his administration, saying look we want to deal first just with the tax cuts. republicans want to add the other pieces to it because they know it's hard to defend fighting...
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cliff. the speaker set to given a update out state of negotiations with the white house in two hours. we will bring brink that to you live t did the mark it's job to deal of what happened with ben bernanke's comments and now the target in terms of tying interest rates to unemployment, which is a very new and big development for the fed. >> cnbc is talking over and over again, 2 million jobs to be lost, not if but when we go over the cliff. ben bernanke is listening to what this network is saying, recognizing there is going to be a dram mat hillsborough county job loss if we go over the cliff that is force austerity, that is firing people. look at spain when they got serious. italy. it meant a lot of firings. he says i see what we are going to do follow these countries that have fiscal responsibility a lot of people are going to be fired. don't worry, i'm going to do my best. what what are you going to do to keep people employed? >> keeping the heat on congress, came up a number of times, of
cliff. the speaker set to given a update out state of negotiations with the white house in two hours. we will bring brink that to you live t did the mark it's job to deal of what happened with ben bernanke's comments and now the target in terms of tying interest rates to unemployment, which is a very new and big development for the fed. >> cnbc is talking over and over again, 2 million jobs to be lost, not if but when we go over the cliff. ben bernanke is listening to what this network is...
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if you think the fiscal cliff has the potential to have a negative economic impact, and it does to a -- especially if you go far into january and beyond. but fooling around with the debt ceiling is catastrophic. i don't think our republican colleagues are going to gain any sympathy from the american public when they are threatening to tank the u.s. economy. i know all of you understand, but i think it is important that people following these discussions recognize that lifting the debt ceiling is not to borrow money to pay for new things. it is to pay for bills that the united states has already incurred, that congress has already voted on. it would be like getting up one morning and saying we're not going pay our mortgage or it is like if we all spend on the credit card, buying things we like, then we're not going pay the bill. so for the united states of america to wake up one morning and say we're not paying our bills would be economic catastrophic. >> does that rule skip operative or can you see a way that they can do the heavy lifting and you can get enough votes to get it over?
if you think the fiscal cliff has the potential to have a negative economic impact, and it does to a -- especially if you go far into january and beyond. but fooling around with the debt ceiling is catastrophic. i don't think our republican colleagues are going to gain any sympathy from the american public when they are threatening to tank the u.s. economy. i know all of you understand, but i think it is important that people following these discussions recognize that lifting the debt ceiling...
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ceilings that are no longer automatically increased, fiscal cliffs and sequestrations. what we're having is an american political system that can't work without having a gun put at its own head. it may not work. and then what's so worrying is every single businessman i know says what do we need? predictability, some sense of where the economy's going to be in six months or a year. what are the rules going to be so we can make basic decisions about investment. everything we're seeing in washington now is working against building this kind of predictability into the american political system which is going exactly against what it is we need. so even if we get through the cliff, then we've got the debt ceiling vote february and then future cliffs. the system is so broken here. what we're seeing is no ability just to legislate as a normal process. >> and this is, as you guys were talking about before we went on the show this morning, mika, this is just the first act. >> yeah. >> this is just the first act, and it sets up a lot of other things. >> david henniger, the real qu
ceilings that are no longer automatically increased, fiscal cliffs and sequestrations. what we're having is an american political system that can't work without having a gun put at its own head. it may not work. and then what's so worrying is every single businessman i know says what do we need? predictability, some sense of where the economy's going to be in six months or a year. what are the rules going to be so we can make basic decisions about investment. everything we're seeing in...
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the longer the white house slow walks this discussion, the closer our economy gets to the fiscal cliff and the more american jobs are placed in jeopardy. >> gretchen: so with both sides still hung up over tax hikes and spending cuts, can they come it a consensus in time to avert going off the cliff? let's ask texas congressman jeb hensarling who joins me live this morning. good morning to you. >> good morning. how are you? >> gretchen: doing just fine, thank you so much. it's interesting because it appears from john boehner that the president isn't budging on the spending cuts. yet i want to point you in the direction of a new fox news poll that came out this morning that said that if there are tax increases, should the president also budge on spending cuts? you want to know how many people said yes? 89%. your thoughts. >> well, i'm gratified by that because the truth is america is facing a debt crisis. under president obama, we've accumulated more debt in four years than in the previous 200. we're borrowing roughly 40 cents on the dollar, much of it from the chinese. sending the bill
the longer the white house slow walks this discussion, the closer our economy gets to the fiscal cliff and the more american jobs are placed in jeopardy. >> gretchen: so with both sides still hung up over tax hikes and spending cuts, can they come it a consensus in time to avert going off the cliff? let's ask texas congressman jeb hensarling who joins me live this morning. good morning to you. >> good morning. how are you? >> gretchen: doing just fine, thank you so much. it's...
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the real attention will be on this massive, $60.3 trillion debt, this fiscal cliff. but, most importantly, this debt crisis next year. i'm not talking about what's going to happen in february or january. what i want to talk about is how do we solve this problem? how do we get the speaker? and the president actually opened up that back door. they're sitting there making back room deals. open up and let the american people see what's going on. i want to see what's going on. they won't tell either side what the deal-making is going on. i don't think that's the way to make policy. >> now, as you said, you and i may not agree. we've debated on this show, though you've always come on. are you saying that you believe that speaker boehner has a score card and is punishing you and three others for standing up and voting for what you believe to be right? >> that is apparently the case. we wrote a letter to the speaker and i think if you read the language of the letter, you walk through all of the washington and you see oh, yes, there was a score card and we were graded a certa
the real attention will be on this massive, $60.3 trillion debt, this fiscal cliff. but, most importantly, this debt crisis next year. i'm not talking about what's going to happen in february or january. what i want to talk about is how do we solve this problem? how do we get the speaker? and the president actually opened up that back door. they're sitting there making back room deals. open up and let the american people see what's going on. i want to see what's going on. they won't tell either...
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white house wants at the very least a long-term extension of the debt ceiling in any fiscal cliff deal. the republicans now see the debt ceiling as their own leverage. they're demanding a steep price to include it. who anyways if obama will ultimately go along with something like this. but it is a talk that there is still one crucial way he's at the mercy of republicans. it leaves him with a tough choice. to pay their price in entitlements or play debt ceiling chicken with them again. okay. does it for "the cycle" today.
white house wants at the very least a long-term extension of the debt ceiling in any fiscal cliff deal. the republicans now see the debt ceiling as their own leverage. they're demanding a steep price to include it. who anyways if obama will ultimately go along with something like this. but it is a talk that there is still one crucial way he's at the mercy of republicans. it leaves him with a tough choice. to pay their price in entitlements or play debt ceiling chicken with them again. okay....
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in a sense what we are talking about with the fiscal cliff where there may be a deal on tax rates and later next year deal with entitlements in the deficits and debt ceiling and the other issues facing us. would you support backing away from a comprehensive legislation to perhaps piece meal it together or are we past that at this point with so many millions of people in the country illegally? >> there is a consensus growing that piece meal doesn't work. every time we had an individual element of the comprehensive immigration reform and taken one piece and putting it on the floor, it becomes where everybody else wants to add on. if you put ag jobs on the floor for the agriculture industry, the high tech industry said wait a minute, we need visas for high tech workers. site food industry said we need the low visas for ship hands. then you have the hotel and restaurant industry. you have a series of elements that become a demand. you are back to trying to solve the problem comprehensively. there is a agreeing consensus that we have to achieve through comprehensive reform. what that pathw
in a sense what we are talking about with the fiscal cliff where there may be a deal on tax rates and later next year deal with entitlements in the deficits and debt ceiling and the other issues facing us. would you support backing away from a comprehensive legislation to perhaps piece meal it together or are we past that at this point with so many millions of people in the country illegally? >> there is a consensus growing that piece meal doesn't work. every time we had an individual...
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the real fiscal cliff is what happens if we don't strike a good deal, that actually deals with our debt and deficit. and that's when the credit markets, capital markets will really respond. i'm far more concerned about that than i am the deadline at the end of the year. >> a lot of discussion about boehner's caucus. not just in the house so much, but even in the senate. this is a quote from jeff sessions today. washington has become possessed by the idea that a small group of negotiators meeting in secret can solve the deep, painful and systemic problems plaguing this country. this is a siren song. do you think the process here at large is flawed? >> well, i don't know that you would get anything better if you had both bodies working on it in total. we are where we are. i think the best chance we have now are for the negotiators to strike a deal and put that on the floor of the house and the senate. >> of course, last time, speaker boehner did a deal with obama. it was actually rejected by the rest of the gop, and the whole thing fell apart. how significant is it as boehner looks to mak
the real fiscal cliff is what happens if we don't strike a good deal, that actually deals with our debt and deficit. and that's when the credit markets, capital markets will really respond. i'm far more concerned about that than i am the deadline at the end of the year. >> a lot of discussion about boehner's caucus. not just in the house so much, but even in the senate. this is a quote from jeff sessions today. washington has become possessed by the idea that a small group of negotiators...
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arrangement for us until we get through this fiscal cliff issue. again, what i'd rather see happen is that we just deal with that all right now and we start off next year with people know that's done. since it looks like every day that goes by it looks like it's increasingly unlikely that that's going to happen, i wanted to offer a proposal today for the leadership of the senate and that is since it looks like the debt ceiling could be coming up early next year, as a matter of fact, it may coincide very closely with the continuing resolution so there's two, if you will, moments in time where we've got to make big decisions here for our country, i would offer that we go ahead and begin the process of the debt ceiling and i would make the proposal that the first roughly $1 trillion, $900 billion to $1 trillion in raises in the debt ceiling are accompanied by $900 billion to $1 trillion in cuts in entitlement spending to actually cause those programs to be solvent. i think all of us want to make sure that seniors in this country are protected, we know
arrangement for us until we get through this fiscal cliff issue. again, what i'd rather see happen is that we just deal with that all right now and we start off next year with people know that's done. since it looks like every day that goes by it looks like it's increasingly unlikely that that's going to happen, i wanted to offer a proposal today for the leadership of the senate and that is since it looks like the debt ceiling could be coming up early next year, as a matter of fact, it may...
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one is that fiscal cliff, to is the debt ceiling. three is the so-called big deal that has to be done on our debt and deficit. unfortunately those issues, convoluted, especially in this town. they are distinct. the impact each other but they are distinct. this fiscal cliff is an artificial state. congress came in, said this law expires on this date. they extended it wants. they put in the sequestration. it is a date. all they have to do is extend the date and allow themselves time to discuss the issues. instead they are putting it all into a lame duck session. that is a problem. sometimes it leads to bad policy. the fiscal cliff can have real consequences. cbo has said that it would cause a recession if we were to go off the fiscal cliff. i do not dispute that i do point out that in 1993 when these taxes were first put in, many said they will cause a recession. they did not. the economy is improving on its own right now. and getting some much stronger. the impact of the fiscal cliff, while not something to be encouraged, may not be a
one is that fiscal cliff, to is the debt ceiling. three is the so-called big deal that has to be done on our debt and deficit. unfortunately those issues, convoluted, especially in this town. they are distinct. the impact each other but they are distinct. this fiscal cliff is an artificial state. congress came in, said this law expires on this date. they extended it wants. they put in the sequestration. it is a date. all they have to do is extend the date and allow themselves time to discuss...
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in order to avert fiscal disaster by not raising the debt ceiling. he said he won't indulge in that. unfortunately, the president has also said he won't use or threaten to use the implicit authority many constitutional scholars think the president has to ignore the debt ceiling because the 14th amendment provision that says the full faith and credit of the united states will not be questioned. >> eliot: i wanted to pick up on that threat because while i'm not persuaded you would win that argument, it is a powerful argument. why do you think the white house took that issue off the table? they certainly could have used it as a negotiating ploy lingering out there saying look, pursuant to the constitution you just cited the provision the president must act to protect the full faith and credit of the united states. therefore i -- why did he not use that as a more powerful weapon? >> i don't know, frankly. there are constitutional scholars who say that the debt ceiling is unconstitutional. just the idea of the debt ceiling is unconstitutional because it c
in order to avert fiscal disaster by not raising the debt ceiling. he said he won't indulge in that. unfortunately, the president has also said he won't use or threaten to use the implicit authority many constitutional scholars think the president has to ignore the debt ceiling because the 14th amendment provision that says the full faith and credit of the united states will not be questioned. >> eliot: i wanted to pick up on that threat because while i'm not persuaded you would win that...
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the last eight or nine related principally to the fiscal cliff. we brought about 370 business leaders representing 32 different state the white house and the message that they're giving is pretty consistent with simpson bowles, consistent with fix the debt, consistent with how business voice is characterized in the media. they're anxious for the debt, they want certainty as quickly as possible. they tend to use simpson bowles as their frame of reference. the question is not which plan, republican plan or the democrat plan is better, it's which plan is closer to simpson boles and why? host: here's "the hill" newspaper. obama-friendly business groups given great access to the white house. guest: we bring business leaders from around the country to work on health care reform, immigration reform, the fiscal cliff, intellectual property protection and the business leaders are speaking for themselves. generally speaking, business leaders are centrists. they're data driven, results oriented. and they are looking for compromise in washington. state prooba
the last eight or nine related principally to the fiscal cliff. we brought about 370 business leaders representing 32 different state the white house and the message that they're giving is pretty consistent with simpson bowles, consistent with fix the debt, consistent with how business voice is characterized in the media. they're anxious for the debt, they want certainty as quickly as possible. they tend to use simpson bowles as their frame of reference. the question is not which plan,...
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ceiling and decided to roll a debt ceiling extension in to the fiscal cliff deal whatever they end up striking here and seems to me acknowledging republicans have leverage with cpi and talking about raising the medicare age. my question to you as a progressive is, republicans want something big. is there any big concessions you can see acceptable? >> new york city i really can't. and the kind of things we are talking about, even if they're not -- may not be acceptable to me ever but talking about a version of the changed cpi, the president already said social security is off the table because it is not driving the deficit. that's kind of weird. changes to medicare eligibility again or changes to medicare payments or whatever, it's really complicated to negotiate but i have to say i agree with you, steve. i'm -- i wish that the president hadn't taken the 14th amendment off the table because we're all saying, well, nothing should be off the table. why is that off the table and even if it's tough thing to pull off in the long run? i think that this mania for a fiscal cliff deal is distur
ceiling and decided to roll a debt ceiling extension in to the fiscal cliff deal whatever they end up striking here and seems to me acknowledging republicans have leverage with cpi and talking about raising the medicare age. my question to you as a progressive is, republicans want something big. is there any big concessions you can see acceptable? >> new york city i really can't. and the kind of things we are talking about, even if they're not -- may not be acceptable to me ever but...
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very soon after this fiscal cliff issue moves forward, we're going to be moving forward on the debt ceiling debate. you have said you do not agree with president obama that he basically wants to take this debt ceiling debate off the table and this no barriers. why? >> it's like taking the limits off a teenager daughter's credit card. if you don't have limits you're going to spend forever. if the president didn't have limits, didn't have to come to us, work out an agreement, spending goes on forever, debt and deficit, pretty soon -- >> play with people's lives every couple of years on this debt ceiling. look, i want this, otherwise i'm not going to prove it. >> don't play with lives but pocketbook of american people. time we stopped spending so much. debt cap is like credit card cap, it works. >> there's been a suggestion where he need to reduce mortgage interest deduction, a million dollars. should that come down. >> you shouldn't never pick one deduction out and say that's where i'm going to do it. i favor capping on a means test. for example, if you're in the top 2%, maybe maximum deducti
very soon after this fiscal cliff issue moves forward, we're going to be moving forward on the debt ceiling debate. you have said you do not agree with president obama that he basically wants to take this debt ceiling debate off the table and this no barriers. why? >> it's like taking the limits off a teenager daughter's credit card. if you don't have limits you're going to spend forever. if the president didn't have limits, didn't have to come to us, work out an agreement, spending goes...
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. >> the longer white house slow walk this is process, the closer our economy gets to the fiscal cliff. we know that the president wants more stimulus spending and increase in the debt limit without any cuts or reforms. that's not fixing our problem. frankly, it's making it worse. >> let me bring in our "news nation" political panel this hour. chris cafinus, michael smerkonish and louies romanis. what are we to make of speaker boehner coming out today, not sure of the overall message other than he wanted to have, i guess, a sound bite to play today as we continue to talk and the president is off at least negotiating behind the scenes on the fiscal cliff. >> i think you called it, tamron. look, the rhetoric is scaled back dramatically in the last few days. they're talking and seriously evidenced by the fact we're not learning that much. they're keeping it pretty close to the vest. i think the speaker is under enormous pressure of his own caucus to get something, to extract something in return for these tax hikes. and that's why he's talking about spending cuts. but i think that they're
. >> the longer white house slow walk this is process, the closer our economy gets to the fiscal cliff. we know that the president wants more stimulus spending and increase in the debt limit without any cuts or reforms. that's not fixing our problem. frankly, it's making it worse. >> let me bring in our "news nation" political panel this hour. chris cafinus, michael smerkonish and louies romanis. what are we to make of speaker boehner coming out today, not sure of the...
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speaker, on sunday the president and house speaker boehner met to discuss the impending fiscal cliff. the next day the president jetted off to michigan to campaign for tax increases instead of staying in washington to work on a possible plan. with a national debt of over $16 trillion, washington's out-of-control spending is placing our national security at risk. clearly spending is a threat with an increase of 93.5% over 10 years and revenues increased only 15.7%. raising taxes on the american economy will destroy jobs. reports have indicated that raising taxes on the top 2% will generate up to $80 billion a year. this amount of money covers less than 10% of our nation's annual deficits. it's my hope that the president will address the fiscal cliff to work with house republicans to promote small business job growth. in conclusion, god bless our troops and we will never forget september 11 and the global war on terrorism. the speaker pro tempore: the gentleman's time has expired. for what purpose does the gentleman from illinois rise? mr. dold: to address the house for one minute and t
speaker, on sunday the president and house speaker boehner met to discuss the impending fiscal cliff. the next day the president jetted off to michigan to campaign for tax increases instead of staying in washington to work on a possible plan. with a national debt of over $16 trillion, washington's out-of-control spending is placing our national security at risk. clearly spending is a threat with an increase of 93.5% over 10 years and revenues increased only 15.7%. raising taxes on the american...
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most of that is because of fiscal cliff. can you see here the current probability, 28.5% we'll have a recession in the next 12 months. we had a low in march of almost 20%. that compares with a high. remember the debt ceiling debate of 36%. that chance going up. i want to show you in detail what dan greenhouse wrote in with his response in the survey. if the cliff is triggered and the cuts/tax increases remain in place for several weeks or worse, several months, it's hard to construct a scenario where the u.s. economy is not in recession. this is what's interesting here. recovering from that recession is not as simple as fixing the cliff's issues. the u.s. economy is not a light switch. you don't turn it back on. so the question, will we go over the cliff? on the first, looks like no, we won't go over. we'll avoid it. 41% say, yes, we'll go over, 46% say we won't. look at this, 13% don't know. we talk about uncertainty in the economy. i would add 41% who say we're going over with the 13% who say we don't know. that's 54% righ
most of that is because of fiscal cliff. can you see here the current probability, 28.5% we'll have a recession in the next 12 months. we had a low in march of almost 20%. that compares with a high. remember the debt ceiling debate of 36%. that chance going up. i want to show you in detail what dan greenhouse wrote in with his response in the survey. if the cliff is triggered and the cuts/tax increases remain in place for several weeks or worse, several months, it's hard to construct a scenario...
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- gets to the fiscal cliff. here's what we know. we know that the president wants more stimulus spending and an increase in the debt limit without any cuts or reforms. that's not fixing our problem. frankly, it's making it worse. on top of that, the president wants to raise taxes on many small business owners. now, even if we did exactly what the president wants, we would see red ink as far as the eye can see. that's not fixing our problem either. it's making it worse and it's hurting our economy. i think the members know i'm an optimist. i'm hopeful we can reach an agreement. this is a serious issue and there's a lot at stake. the american people sent us here to work together toward the best possible solution and that means cutting spending. if the president doesn't agree with our approach, he's got an obligation to put forward a plan that can pass both chambers of the congress because right now the american people have to be scratching their heads and wondering whe minority leader, ms. pelosi, for five minutes
- gets to the fiscal cliff. here's what we know. we know that the president wants more stimulus spending and an increase in the debt limit without any cuts or reforms. that's not fixing our problem. frankly, it's making it worse. on top of that, the president wants to raise taxes on many small business owners. now, even if we did exactly what the president wants, we would see red ink as far as the eye can see. that's not fixing our problem either. it's making it worse and it's hurting our...
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- gets to the fiscal cliff. here's what we know. we know that the president wants more stimulus spending and an increase in the debt limit without any cuts or reforms. that's not fixing our problem. frankly, it's making it worse. on top of that, the president wants to raise taxes on many small business owners. now, even if we did exactly what the president wants, we would see red ink as far as the eye can see. that's not fixing our problem either. it's making it worse and it's hurting our economy. i think the members know i'm an optimist. i'm hopeful we can reach an agreement. this is a serious issue and there's a lot at stake. the american people sent us here to work together toward the best possible solution and that means cutting spending. if the president doesn't agree with our approach, he's got an obligation to put forward a plan that can pass both chambers of the congress because right now the american people have to be scratching their heads and wondering when is the president going to get serious. i yie
- gets to the fiscal cliff. here's what we know. we know that the president wants more stimulus spending and an increase in the debt limit without any cuts or reforms. that's not fixing our problem. frankly, it's making it worse. on top of that, the president wants to raise taxes on many small business owners. now, even if we did exactly what the president wants, we would see red ink as far as the eye can see. that's not fixing our problem either. it's making it worse and it's hurting our...
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a lot of people have been drawing similarities between the current fiscal cliff negotiations and that debt ceiling standoff from last year. so we have one former insider who joins us right now. he's been through this before. he probably knows how to read the signs better than just about anybody out there. bill daley was the white house chief of staff under president obama during the debt ceiling negotiations last year. mr. daley, thank you very much for joining us this morning. >> thanks for having me. >> reporter: we were just trying to figure out what to make of this. all morning long we've been saying it's relatively good news that we haven't within hearing from the principalprincipals. what does it mean now that speaker boehner is going to be addressing the house at noon. >> i think it's a strong sign there is movement. i don't know that. i'm not on the inside. i don't know what's going on. i doubt the speaker is going to stand up and speak to the body and say nothing's happening and we're not going anywhere and just give a partisan speech. so i'm hopeful that that's what this mea
a lot of people have been drawing similarities between the current fiscal cliff negotiations and that debt ceiling standoff from last year. so we have one former insider who joins us right now. he's been through this before. he probably knows how to read the signs better than just about anybody out there. bill daley was the white house chief of staff under president obama during the debt ceiling negotiations last year. mr. daley, thank you very much for joining us this morning. >> thanks...
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related to the fiscal cliff, the last eight or nine meetings. and business leaders representing 32 states we have brought to the white house. the message they're getting is pretty consistent with simpson- bowles and with fixing the debt and with how the business relationship is characterized in the media. they're anxious for debt deal, because they want certainty as quickly as possible. they tend to use simpson-bowles as their frame of reference. the question is not whether it's the democratic or republican plan is better, is which plan is closer to simpson-bowles. host: here is the hill newspaper -- guest: well, [indiscernible] what we do is bring business leaders from around the country to brief the president and his economic team, on health care reform to immigration reform, the fiscal cliff, intellectual property protection. and the business leaders are speaking for themselves. generally speaking, business leaders are centrists, data driven, results oriented. they are looking for compromise in washington. is it a pro-obama group or republica
related to the fiscal cliff, the last eight or nine meetings. and business leaders representing 32 states we have brought to the white house. the message they're getting is pretty consistent with simpson- bowles and with fixing the debt and with how the business relationship is characterized in the media. they're anxious for debt deal, because they want certainty as quickly as possible. they tend to use simpson-bowles as their frame of reference. the question is not whether it's the democratic...
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that's not what the american people thought the fiscal cliff was about. they thought it was about trying to have something to force us, force our congress and our president to do something about the deficit and debt situation. everything they're talking about will make it worse. >> what's the answer? will we have the deal? >> the real answer is to have comprehensive. look at this. i as a republican, i would take raising the rates on the two top brackets if, in return, we had tax reform laid out over a period of months, if we had entitlement reform. we have to control defense spending. we have to control other no non- -- other discretionary non-defense spending. i think if you have the whole package, i would hold my nose despite the fact raising those two tax brackets is bad economics, bad for jobs, will hurt the economy, i would hold my nose to get the other done. what i wouldn't do is vote for that and do nothing else. >> agree completely. what i've been saying here. steve rattner. >> i agree completely. to get a big deal we all have to hold our nose a l
that's not what the american people thought the fiscal cliff was about. they thought it was about trying to have something to force us, force our congress and our president to do something about the deficit and debt situation. everything they're talking about will make it worse. >> what's the answer? will we have the deal? >> the real answer is to have comprehensive. look at this. i as a republican, i would take raising the rates on the two top brackets if, in return, we had tax...
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if we get through that, we got the debt ceiling -- man we can fix the fiscal cliff. we're going to hype -- i can't wait for the debt ceiling now. man is that going to be something, too. that's going to be our next thing. >> constant entertainment. >> oh, talk about it. >> you've got -- you think this is brinksmanship. when is the deadline? i can't wait. >> it's february, right? the beginning of february. >> what's the slogan for that? >> let me come up with that. >> negotiate up. >> we don't want this to end with the fiscal cliff. we got -- and it won't. anyway -- >> how about the s&p 500? >> coming up the hunt for yield at times of uncertainty. institutional investors looking for alternatives to the lower return on fixed income. we're going to talk to the north carolina treasurer and the co-founder of investment firm cambridge associated. >> over president barack obama's first term the federal debt to gdp ratio increased over 19%. it is projected to increase over 20% by the end of his second term. [ male announcer ] you are a business pro. monarch of marketing analy
if we get through that, we got the debt ceiling -- man we can fix the fiscal cliff. we're going to hype -- i can't wait for the debt ceiling now. man is that going to be something, too. that's going to be our next thing. >> constant entertainment. >> oh, talk about it. >> you've got -- you think this is brinksmanship. when is the deadline? i can't wait. >> it's february, right? the beginning of february. >> what's the slogan for that? >> let me come up with...
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it was the debt ceiling. >> steve: first fiscal cliff of our lifetime. >> gretchen: it feels like it has been here a longg time and they were talking about the importance of the day to get the bill actually through. i feel like they can jump through hoops and get past that, too. >> eric: had it has to originate in the house and sent over marked up to the senate and point being there is a lot of hoop to jump through. you know. rudy guiliani is on hannity last night. he was approached with the same sort of problem in new york city . listen to how he handled it >> i was given a report that said you have to raise taxes and said nothing about reducing spending. i was not an economic expert. i became one after becoming mayor in new york. i said it makes no sense. if i raises tax now. i will have to do it in two or four years. i will try to do something different. lower taxings. i in the beginning but a little bit and two or three years lower taxings. we had a three billion surplus and unemployment dropped from 10.5 to six percent . the city was humming. bowles is rightt, this is a spending
it was the debt ceiling. >> steve: first fiscal cliff of our lifetime. >> gretchen: it feels like it has been here a longg time and they were talking about the importance of the day to get the bill actually through. i feel like they can jump through hoops and get past that, too. >> eric: had it has to originate in the house and sent over marked up to the senate and point being there is a lot of hoop to jump through. you know. rudy guiliani is on hannity last night. he was...
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, and florida republican senator subrow, and connecticut independent senator, lieberman, and former debt co-chair and i could go on but i told you i take it upon myself to fix this mess as if i'm not busy enough thank you but i am looking after you and this country and if they cannot put together something, yours truly can and if i have to show up in spandex, i will. >> six weeks after losing their home they are being kicked out of their temporary one. it goes down this week. you wonder whether all of the high five's with the politicians commending fema had a clue. >> a big shout out to fema. they are a great partner. >> the president could not have appointed a better person. >> the administration, fema you have established when the call goes out the country is there to help their people. the "share t. get a great deal on a new subaru and 250 dollars goes to your choice of five charities. by the end of this, our fifth year, our total can reach almost 25 million dollars. it's a nice reflection on us all. now through january 2nd. get 0% apr financing for 36 months on a 2013 subaru forester
, and florida republican senator subrow, and connecticut independent senator, lieberman, and former debt co-chair and i could go on but i told you i take it upon myself to fix this mess as if i'm not busy enough thank you but i am looking after you and this country and if they cannot put together something, yours truly can and if i have to show up in spandex, i will. >> six weeks after losing their home they are being kicked out of their temporary one. it goes down this week. you wonder...
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. >> when the two sides are beyond the fiscal cliff deadline they have to raise the debt ceiling which can be used as leverage. >>shepard: doctors had given up on saving a little girl with leukemia and now she is alive and her cancer is in complete remission. how did they do it? there is an experimental therapy that saved her. and they tell us it could revolutionize cancer treatment. it has to do with one virus called hiv. >>shepard: doctors say cancer already killed a since-year-old girl until they triad very different kind of treatment. they gave her a disabled form of h.i.v., the virus that causes aids and now the girl has been cancer free for seven months. researchers say this could fundamentally change the way we treat the crippling cancer of leukemia. a doctor who helped develop this treatment is director of blood and transplant at a center in philadelphia. h.i.v....what does this do? >>guest: if you think about it, one of the ways that h.i.v. works is by getting into cells, into immune cells. it is good at getting any cells but the virus makes them sick and kills the immune cell
. >> when the two sides are beyond the fiscal cliff deadline they have to raise the debt ceiling which can be used as leverage. >>shepard: doctors had given up on saving a little girl with leukemia and now she is alive and her cancer is in complete remission. how did they do it? there is an experimental therapy that saved her. and they tell us it could revolutionize cancer treatment. it has to do with one virus called hiv. >>shepard: doctors say cancer already killed a...
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even as we are wrestling with trying to debt a handle on the fiscal cliff, we cannot lose sight of their urgent priority of making sure we have job growth -- job creation, to say the least. many of the components you have outlined -- that both of you have -- it comprised of the broad description of the fiscal cliff whether it is the expiring tax cut provisions, the expiring tax cut extensions, and spending cuts as well. if you consider more, which of those would you consider having the biggest bang for the buck in terms of economic impact of those that we are discussing here today? >> it is a given that we will extend the current tax rates for taxpayers that make less than $250,000 on an annual basis. that is absolutely necessary. when you consider the other things that are happening -- in terms of the bang for the buck, the emergency unemployment insurance program is very effective. it is small in the grand scheme of things. cbo is estimating it would costs per calendar year about $33 million. but the economic opportunity for job growth compared to the unemployment rate would be measura
even as we are wrestling with trying to debt a handle on the fiscal cliff, we cannot lose sight of their urgent priority of making sure we have job growth -- job creation, to say the least. many of the components you have outlined -- that both of you have -- it comprised of the broad description of the fiscal cliff whether it is the expiring tax cut provisions, the expiring tax cut extensions, and spending cuts as well. if you consider more, which of those would you consider having the biggest...
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right now you don't owe taxes on the forgiven debt. on the other side of the fiscal cliff you do. it gives homeowners a tax break on unpaid mortgage debt and expires on december 31st unless congress acts. >> the average amount that homeowners are short in a short sale is $95,000. if this tax break goes away as part of the so-called fiscal cliff, those homeowners could be taxed on that $95,000 as additional income starting in 2013. >> how much homeowners will owe in taxes on that amount depending on the tax bracket they're in. on average it would be between 20 to $25,000. the banks have an extra incentive to stel short and absorb the loss. under the national mortgage settlement act that went into effect earlier this year, the nation's biggest lenders get a credit for short sales as a form of foreclosure relief. foreclosures sell for $3700 less than homes via short sale. as we near the fiscal cliff you could expect short sales jump more as homeowners look it to aavoid gigt hit with tacks and bankss with foreclosed prormts. if we go over the cliff, the tax bill homeowners face with a
right now you don't owe taxes on the forgiven debt. on the other side of the fiscal cliff you do. it gives homeowners a tax break on unpaid mortgage debt and expires on december 31st unless congress acts. >> the average amount that homeowners are short in a short sale is $95,000. if this tax break goes away as part of the so-called fiscal cliff, those homeowners could be taxed on that $95,000 as additional income starting in 2013. >> how much homeowners will owe in taxes on that...
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i hope boehner and obama can find a way to avoid the initial effects of the fiscal cliff. but in february or march you have to raise the debt ceiling. i can tell you this, there is a hardening on the republican side. we're not going to raise the debt ceiling. we're not going to let obama borrow anymore money or any american congress borrow anymore money until with fix this country from becoming greece. that requires significant entitlement reform to save social from bankruptcy and medicare from bankruptcy. social security is going bankrupt in about 20, 25 years. medicare is going bankrupt in 15 or 20 years. the baby boomers are coming in at 10,000 a day. and we just can't scene this. martha: president last week said we'll not play that game. last time around they wouldn't let the debt ceiling go up, i tell you right now, something to this effect we will play that game. >> we will play that game, mr. president. that is not a game. the game you're play something small ball. you're talking about raising rates on top 2% that would run the government for 11 days. you got reelec
i hope boehner and obama can find a way to avoid the initial effects of the fiscal cliff. but in february or march you have to raise the debt ceiling. i can tell you this, there is a hardening on the republican side. we're not going to raise the debt ceiling. we're not going to let obama borrow anymore money or any american congress borrow anymore money until with fix this country from becoming greece. that requires significant entitlement reform to save social from bankruptcy and medicare from...
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. >> let's talk about the fiscal cliff. also on the radar this morning, after president obama and house speaker john boehner both were tight-lipped how the negotiations went. the co-founder of the fix the debt campaign, he was asked about the chances of striking a deal to avoid the cliff. >> it's probably more like a 40% chance we'll actually get it done before the end of the year. probably 25% chance we'll get it done right after the end of the year. and then there's that horrible 35% chance that we'll still go over the cliff and have pure chaos. but i think the chances of getting it done now are better. i think that's what's key. >> be sure to tune in tomorrow for the fiscal cliff coverage live from washington. mission critical, rise above d.c., all day long. becky quick, jim cramer, maria bartiromo holding their feet to the fire about where they stand on the fiscal cliff and how they'll do their part to rise above partisan politics and reach a deal. now, there are some bowles comments. 40%, yeah, but the odds are much be
. >> let's talk about the fiscal cliff. also on the radar this morning, after president obama and house speaker john boehner both were tight-lipped how the negotiations went. the co-founder of the fix the debt campaign, he was asked about the chances of striking a deal to avoid the cliff. >> it's probably more like a 40% chance we'll actually get it done before the end of the year. probably 25% chance we'll get it done right after the end of the year. and then there's that horrible...
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and they are just going to let the fiscal cliff thing take care of itself. i learned this recently, remember the sequester. >> yes. >> what a panic that was? >> yes. >> they can cancel that. they can say, we are not going to do t we are going to cancel it. just cancelling the budget cuts saying, never mind. >> that's it you know what? i haven't thought about it that way but sincition a creation of their own making? right? the creature of their own making, they can undo what they did. >> they can undo it. >> because it came about they said, so if our super committee doesn't reach an agreement, these draconian budget cuts are going to take place. now, they could say, we changed our mind. >> never mind. yeah, never mind or they could delay it three years or a year or whatever. but they don't have to. >> that's why we are not hearing about it t they will just, we will never mind that. >> bill: well, i think you may be right. i think they know they have lost the battle on the tax cuts. even if they don't get a 39.6, they will agree to 37 or 37 natural or whatever
and they are just going to let the fiscal cliff thing take care of itself. i learned this recently, remember the sequester. >> yes. >> what a panic that was? >> yes. >> they can cancel that. they can say, we are not going to do t we are going to cancel it. just cancelling the budget cuts saying, never mind. >> that's it you know what? i haven't thought about it that way but sincition a creation of their own making? right? the creature of their own making, they can...
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ceiling worries, fiscal cliff worries. we know there will be a little bit less money in the economy because even if we get a deal, we know tax rates are going up. so i wonder, even if a deal with done, i wonder how much umph the market -- it really gets from that knowing that we're headed into just troubled waters for most of 2013, i would say. there's this notion we have all this trillions of dollars on corporate balance sheets. and it's just going to be unleashed. i wonder how much that's offset by the damage already being done. >> no, certainly, and that may be priced in just like you said. but i do think we will see a bump up here on the equity markets and some thin volume. hopefully we see santa claus reality, but to speak specifically to be shorter investment, if you see some type of resolution, there will be a knee jerk reaction. look at the s&p level, 1460. we could go test that in two days, joe. it's not that far away from where we're at right now. >> you just look at what's happening in apple, all the people that
ceiling worries, fiscal cliff worries. we know there will be a little bit less money in the economy because even if we get a deal, we know tax rates are going up. so i wonder, even if a deal with done, i wonder how much umph the market -- it really gets from that knowing that we're headed into just troubled waters for most of 2013, i would say. there's this notion we have all this trillions of dollars on corporate balance sheets. and it's just going to be unleashed. i wonder how much that's...
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cliff. corker said it would allow republicans to press for cuts to entitlements. democratic senator chuck schumer told fox he thinks they will reach a deal. and texas a&m quarterback johnny manzell has won the heisman, the first freshman wotowin. he beat out notre dame linebacker and the kansas state quarterback. that's it. back to you. >> are you going to do the post for us? >> reporter: i enemy a stool, wired up. sorry. >> we will give you near space next time. >> reporter: thanks. >> an update on the developing story we have been following out of southern california. the tolare county sheriffs department has a suspect in custody in a shooting that killed three people and injured two, including two children. the person they identified as the suspect, hector solia was tracked with his cell phone. he refused to stop his car. deputies then opened fire and shot back and he is in the hospital with life-threatening injuries. the shooting victims other than found after someone made a call to 911,
cliff. corker said it would allow republicans to press for cuts to entitlements. democratic senator chuck schumer told fox he thinks they will reach a deal. and texas a&m quarterback johnny manzell has won the heisman, the first freshman wotowin. he beat out notre dame linebacker and the kansas state quarterback. that's it. back to you. >> are you going to do the post for us? >> reporter: i enemy a stool, wired up. sorry. >> we will give you near space next time. >>...
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even as we are wrestling with trying to debt a handle on the fiscal cliff, we cannot lose sight of their urgent priority of making sure we have job growth -- job creation, to say the least. many of the components you have outlined -- that both of you have -- it comprised of the broad description of the fiscal cliff whether it is the expiring tax cut provisions, the expiring tax cut extensions, and spending cuts as well. if you consider more, which of those would you consider having the biggest bang for the buck in terms of economic impact of those that we are discussing here today? >> it is a given that we will extend the current tax rates for taxpayers that make less than $250,000 on an annual basis. that is absolutely necessary. when you consider the other things that are happening -- in terms of the bang for the buck, the emergency unemployment insurance program is very effective. it is small in the grand scheme of things. cbo is estimating it would costs per calendar year about $33 million. but the economic opportunity for job growth compared to the unemployment rate would be measura
even as we are wrestling with trying to debt a handle on the fiscal cliff, we cannot lose sight of their urgent priority of making sure we have job growth -- job creation, to say the least. many of the components you have outlined -- that both of you have -- it comprised of the broad description of the fiscal cliff whether it is the expiring tax cut provisions, the expiring tax cut extensions, and spending cuts as well. if you consider more, which of those would you consider having the biggest...
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coming up at 10:00 on "the chris matthews show," will the final deal on the fiscal cliff be the grand bargain that puts the debt issue to bed or just enough to get past the cliff? or could the president get big concessions from john boehner and force liberals to sign off a-o a big inteelgtsment change? much more talk the past week about hillary clinton gearing up to run for president. in a new washington post poll, her numbers like like they would give her a quick route to the nomination. and a strong chance to win the white house for a clinton third term. join me and david ignatius, john harris, michele caruso ka fwrar cabrera for a great round table. here's what's coming up on "meet the press." ma,ñ0ót5 behind?n00o thisu this morning i'll go inside negotiations with two lawmakers close to them, dick durbin of illinois and congressman, one of boehner's top advisers. i spent time on capitol hill this week. one question i'm dealing with this morning, what has actually changed since last summer's debt debacle? my sense is we may be closer to a deal than some of all the publicr7ó(w- l
coming up at 10:00 on "the chris matthews show," will the final deal on the fiscal cliff be the grand bargain that puts the debt issue to bed or just enough to get past the cliff? or could the president get big concessions from john boehner and force liberals to sign off a-o a big inteelgtsment change? much more talk the past week about hillary clinton gearing up to run for president. in a new washington post poll, her numbers like like they would give her a quick route to the...
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if republicans do not agree, is the administration prepared to go over the fiscal cliff? >> absolutely. >> there's no agreement that doesn't involve the rates going up on the top wealthy 2%. >> republicans clinging to what little leverage they have to maximize cuts zeroed in on the debt ceiling hoping for a repeat of the 2011 showdown where house republicans were able to extract $2 trillion in cuts. $1 trillion cut from domestic programs in ten years and $1.2 trillion in cuts through a sequester. wednesday, president obama seemed to set another red line, a business round table who warned against the repeat of last year's debacle. >> i want to send a clear message. we are not going to play the game next year. if congress suggests they are going to tie negotiations to debt ceiling votes and take us to the brink of default, once again, as part of a budget negotiation, which by the way, we have never done in our history until we did it last year, i will not play that game. because we have to break that habit before it starts. >> so, "the washington post" made a point friday s
if republicans do not agree, is the administration prepared to go over the fiscal cliff? >> absolutely. >> there's no agreement that doesn't involve the rates going up on the top wealthy 2%. >> republicans clinging to what little leverage they have to maximize cuts zeroed in on the debt ceiling hoping for a repeat of the 2011 showdown where house republicans were able to extract $2 trillion in cuts. $1 trillion cut from domestic programs in ten years and $1.2 trillion in cuts...
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in terms of the fiscal cliff, higher taxes on everybody. one thing that will happen without an agreement, all the bush tax rates go away, so everyone's taxes are going to go up. you'll see that emphasized over the next couple weeks. you'll hear the white house talk about what a bad situation there will be after january 1 if this deal is not cut. >> david jackson, "usa today," shira toeplitz, "roll call." we appreciate your time so much we'll talk to you later in the hour as well. >> thank you. >>> the last remaining house race of the 2012 election cycle is pabt to come to a close. in louisiana, republican congressman charles boustany jr., jeff landry facing off in a runoff election. they were forced to run in the same district in bayou because of the state's shrinking congressional delegation. both conservative republicans, landry a tea party freshman. we'll keep you abreast of what happens. >>> meanwhile, high drama about to surround the high court as the justices agree to take on the high-stakes issue of same-sex marriage. ♪ >>> the man
in terms of the fiscal cliff, higher taxes on everybody. one thing that will happen without an agreement, all the bush tax rates go away, so everyone's taxes are going to go up. you'll see that emphasized over the next couple weeks. you'll hear the white house talk about what a bad situation there will be after january 1 if this deal is not cut. >> david jackson, "usa today," shira toeplitz, "roll call." we appreciate your time so much we'll talk to you later in the...
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now fears about the fiscal cliff and america's $16.3 trillion debt are pushing some, seen here, to renounce the pledge. i have been highlighting members of congress who said they are getting over grover. one of those members is tom cole of oklahoma. he signed the pledge and says he's not bound by it anymore. representative cole, a month ago you wrote allowing taxes to rise for just the top bracket may seem an acceptable middle ground by comparison. but this path would be enormously damaging to the economy, which meant you weren't going to do it. now you have been urnling your fellow congressmen to at least extend the bush era tax cuts to those making less than $250,000 and then do battle over tax cuts for the wealthy later. what changed your mind? >> first of all, nothing changed my mind. frankly you mischaracterized my position. i'm not for raising tax rates on anybody. i don't think it's a good idea. bad for the economy. going to slow down, hurt rates. that's my position, not because i signed a pledge. that's what i believe. what i have said is we agree with the president that taxes on 98
now fears about the fiscal cliff and america's $16.3 trillion debt are pushing some, seen here, to renounce the pledge. i have been highlighting members of congress who said they are getting over grover. one of those members is tom cole of oklahoma. he signed the pledge and says he's not bound by it anymore. representative cole, a month ago you wrote allowing taxes to rise for just the top bracket may seem an acceptable middle ground by comparison. but this path would be enormously damaging to...
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does that need to be part of any agreement to appoint -- agreement to avoid the fiscal cliff? >> this is serious fiscal and tax policy. it is about the economic future of our country and making sure this country continues to be the greatest economy and the greatest country in the world. it is not a game. i am with the president on this one. we saw the response of the market in august with the republicans were willing to go off of the fiscal cliff. some of them are saying it now, not paying on our debt and jeopardize the full faith and credit of the united states. this is not a game. if we do not pay our bills and pay our debt, we are going to see interest rates going up. it is not where you make the decision about spending and the budget. you have already made those decisions. this is just about paying the bills. he gets is serious in this country. we have to get the deficit under control and begin to pay down the that feed -- pay down the debt. the last thing we want to do to what is an economic recovery, but a fragile one, we cannot go back to threatening consumer investment
does that need to be part of any agreement to appoint -- agreement to avoid the fiscal cliff? >> this is serious fiscal and tax policy. it is about the economic future of our country and making sure this country continues to be the greatest economy and the greatest country in the world. it is not a game. i am with the president on this one. we saw the response of the market in august with the republicans were willing to go off of the fiscal cliff. some of them are saying it now, not...
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Dec 8, 2012
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. >> i think you should go off the fiscal cliff. americans are barreling down the road that's debt. there is a fork in the road. on the left are all our kids and our grand kids and the next generations. and on the right the road on the right is the fiscal cliff. really that the is choice if we don't do something about it we are going to go anyway. do you run over the kids with the car or do you take the other road which is not a good one but better than running over your kids fiscal cliff. it's a hard choice. >> but if we don't do it, if we don't go over the fiscal cliff the democrats will never cut a dime in spending. >> why would the democrats want change? if the bush tax cuts are going to expire they are saying this is great because this means the rich are going to pay more money, we are going to have more money to spend. they are already spending a the lo. they are saying why would we want change? this is great we have more money to spend. >> nancy pelosi saying why aren't we voting on middle class tax cuts? get to the other stuff. put this up for a vote: listen to nancy pelosi.
. >> i think you should go off the fiscal cliff. americans are barreling down the road that's debt. there is a fork in the road. on the left are all our kids and our grand kids and the next generations. and on the right the road on the right is the fiscal cliff. really that the is choice if we don't do something about it we are going to go anyway. do you run over the kids with the car or do you take the other road which is not a good one but better than running over your kids fiscal...